i hate to sound like im defending noble and everything, but i don't believe our pack EVER gives us a solid base to try anything but the above. Look at the games we've performed well with the backs, its always been "coincidentally" when coley et al have actually shown up.

A good argument and I have to agree with what he says about drip feeding players into the first team squad.



Look at James Graham the current man of steel and one of the best prop forwards in super league and a regular for England for many years to come:





2003 - 1 appearance ( Age 1icon_cool.gif

2004 - 7 appearances ( Age 19)

2005 - 21 appearances ( Age 20)

2006 - 21 appearances ( Age 21)

2007 - 26 appearances ( Age 22)

2008 - 25 appearances ( Age 23)



Paul Prescott:



2004 - 3 appearances ( Age 19)

2005 - 2 appearances ( Age 20)

2006 - 2 appearances ( Age 21)

2007 - 21 appearances ( Age 22)

2008 - 10 appearances (Age 23)



Kyle Eastmond



2007 - 2 appearances ( Age 17)

2008 - 14 appearances ( Age 1icon_cool.gif

2009 - 5 appearances (Age 19)



Sam Tomkins



2007 -

2008 -

2009 - 11 appearances ( Age 20)



So Saints seem to be blooding youngsters far more earlier than Wigan and much more gradual as well. Recently with Sean Ainscough and Sam Tomkins they have just been thrown into the squad without any real duty of care at all. So subsequently lad behind other young players.

It's very true but it's alot easier for a young player coming into a team like saints who are just pure class, Lomax said it himself.

Going off the above it does seem bad, but i think Prescott in particular had a lot of injuries problems if i remember correctly? And comparing tomkins and eastmond, it does look bad but it's such a pivotal position they play in that it is much easier to bring in younger players behind a big dominating pack and top class players surrounding them.

The Paul Prescott case is not the best example but the Eastmond and Tomkins I hope is a bit more of an eye opener. Eastmond is a year younger than Tomkins and has 10 more appearances than him. He made 16 appearances before Tomkins had ever pulled on a Wigan shirt in a super league game and I re-iterate that he is a year younger. Why wasn't he gradually introduced before? It is a pivitol postion but surely that can be more of a benefit to a side if you can introduce a young homegrown talent with the ability to command that pivitol spot for 10 years. Leeds did it with Rob Burrow as well. I don't have the time to show the statistics but he was given far more games than Sam Tomkins and look how he has turned out.



I don't accept we don't have top class players in the team. Gareth Hock, Sean O'loughlin, George Carmont, Pat Richards, Trent Barrett (When he was here) Bryan Fletcher (When he was here). I could name enough each year. It is a poor excuse. In games when Trent Barrett was injured we played Thomas Coyle - why? When Sam Tomkins had obvious far more potential. Also the signing of Tim Smith - why? He has proven hopeless and is here to rebuild his career and get the next flight to Australia - why not forget about him and give the chance to a young lad who would bust a gut to keep his place in the side? We gradually introduced Tim Smith to regain his fitness - why couldn't we have done this with Tomkins?

It's not just individual players though, saints are a class TEAM so it's alot easier for a young player to come in, but I do agree we do not do it as well as other teams which is a real shame because I think we would all agree in saying that alot of the best talent comes from the Wigan area.

That's so true, St Helens are able to play a youngster and he immediately blends in with the first team, now in Wigan's case we don't seem to be able to do it, whether that's down to poor coaching and integration of youngsters or more likely for me the mentality at the club. ST Helens currently have that feeling of success that not only drives the senior players on to be consistent, but also the youngsters don't want to come in and let the side down, Pride in the shirt you could say.

A Wigan youngster comes in and the team is already playing poorly and they aren't motivated by those around them, where as ST Helens youngsters are able to come and see the likes of Cunningham and Long and they already now what standard is expected and what the senior players expect of them.

For me so much of Wigan's problems lie mentally within the players and staff, and till we overcome that, I personally don't think we can move forward no matter what players we bring in, the mental side of things has to be addressed. By mental I mean mental strength, pride, passion and a never say die attitude.

That may be true regarding the number of games he has actually played but you are not suggesting this was the plan all along? That is he was always going to play in the games he has played in?



If he has reached a quota of games should he not play any more this season?







Which of course means any notion that a young player should only play a certain number of games is daft. If they are good enough they are old enough as Tomkins is proving. Stating a player will only get a certain number of games leaves you with a self imposed restriction you may regret.



I think many of us would have liked to have seen both these players be given the odd game in 2008 because they would have benefited form the experience. Ainscough is 20 in September I think, Sam has turned 20 already. So I think there is something in what the o/p says in that they ought not to be coming from nowhere and at this age and already have more appearances than they do under their belts.



However I don't think prescribing a young player should only play a certain number of games depending what season they are in and at some point simply be dropped regardless of form because he has played a few games (which is what happened to Ainscough) is sensible or beneficial to the player.







So do you think J Tomkins would have been brought through if Lockers had not got injured? I don't and I know others think the same.







Leneghan may well be keen on youth but all of J Tomkins, S Tomkins and Ainscough got the chances they did because of injury or suspensions. Not one of them was deliberately introduced at the time they were to give them some game time. I can't remember if that has ever happened at all under Noble. Prescott and O'Carroll are two of only five props at the club so I don't even think they count as Noble has little alternative but to play one of them if he insists on a four prop team.



We produce the young players but under Noble it has IMO been mismanaged and if the squad remained fully fit I doubt we would have seen Sam T and Ainscough much at all.



Dave

It is a factor in Stains favour but that is still no excuse. If this is the case why don't Wigan have a team? With experienced internationals to help ease the introduction of young players to the squad. Who fault is this?



Well Brian Noble is the man that says the players he wants in the squad.

I think your last part is interesting.



I don't think we have a winning mentality anymore, like we used to. It's the reason why I would love to have people like Farrell, Hanley and Edwards involved. I think your off to a flyer straight away if you believe you can win. Imagine what people think when they see Federer accross the court or Tiger Woods on the score sheet or Ronnie O'Sullivan on the other chair at the crucible or lined up next to Usain Bolt on the track or what teams used to think coming to central park seeing our great players on the other side of the field, we do not hold this threat anymore, we do not believe we will win and the opposition do not think we are more a threat to them than they are to us.

This is a long term thing, we have got ourselves in this mess over many years and saints have built that amazing team over many seasons, which is why we should be building now, but are we really? I am not sure.

IL said he had a 4/5 year plan when he took over. Does the recruitment suggest this with the obvious flaws in the side i.e prop forward, quality halfback, leadership.



I'm not sure who is to blame for that Brian Noble or IL.