We're talking about the direction in which a ball travels, and our frame of reference is a rugby pitch which has pre-determined markings. The biomechanics of a player's body when he's in the process of throwing a ball is not the same thing as the direction the ball takes after he has thrown it (it's may offer a guide to direction, but it's not the same thing).

Nope, our frame of reference is two players in motion.

That's because they understand physics...we live in a world with physical laws.

Nope. That's not the case (except in Stevo's mind)





Nope – that's not the case. The rules of rugby league have always recognised the laws of physics.



To put it simply:



Player A and B are running up the field at 3m/s (actual speeds may vary this is for illustration). Player A passes the ball to player B, who is one meter behind him (and a bit to the side). He imparts a backward velocity to the ball of 1 m/s (plus a lateral velocity which we can ignore for the purposes of this discussion). In the second it takes for the ball to travel from player A to player B, both have travelled three metres further up the pitch. Player B catches the ball 2 metres further up the pitch than where player A passed it from. But he's still 1m behind player A and it's a perfectly legal pass. And so it should be.



Player A passed the ball backwards to a player who's behind him. Within the frame of reference of the two players, it moved backwards at a velocity of 1m/s. Within the frame of reference of the pitch, ball moved forward with a velocity of 2m/s (the momentum of the two players and the ball of 3m/s less the backwards velocity imparted to it by the passing player of 1m/s).



Simple, straightforward (and it still works if the Player A grinds to a halt after passing the ball because he's been tackled) and involving no more than a basic understanding of how the universe actually works. To rule a pass which is perfectly legal and legitimate forward, when a player has passed the ball to a player behind him would be both stupid and unrealistic.



(please note this explanation ignores factors such as the fact that the players (even if standing still), the ball and the pitch are moving at around 1000mph due to the earth's rotation, plus added factors of momentum due to the planet's orbit around the sun, the sun's orbit around the galaxy etc)

Sweet Baby Jeezus...





I honestly don't understand how you have so comprehensively failed to grasp the point. For a start, the direction of the players hands as they release the ball is pretty fundamental to the direction of the ball's flight [irelative to the player[/i. Unless they're some kind of freak of nature.



For a second, the rules do not judge directionality relative to the ground. They judge it relative to the try lines/posts, and they only judge the direction that the ball is [ipropelled[/i in, not the resulting trajectory.



And finally...



Assuming that by 'genuinely flat pass' you mean a pass that finishes no nearer the opponent's try line than it starts, this would actually be a pass backward at a significant angle if the player is anything other than stationary.

You are. However the only reference to the direction the ball travels in the laws is to give examples of how a ball passed backwards could travel forwards. These include being blown by the wind and bouncing forward. I assume you think that a ball that is passed backwards and then blown forward by the wind is also a forward pass?

Which means the the direction of the pass is not necessarily judged by the actual direction the pass actually travels relative to the ground, it also has nothing to do with the position of a players hands when passing, because that is not the same as the actual direction of a pass relative to either the ground or any other given player. However, the direction of everything else on the field is relative to the ground i.e.

- the players move relative to the ground so the touchline, the try line and any other fixed line does not move, the player moves in relation to those things.

- when we judge a player onside/offside from a kick we look at the position on the ground where the players are stood, a kicker may play his team mates onside, but this does not itself determine the direction of the kick, merely whether the reciever is in front or behind the kicker relative to the fixed markings on the ground.

Right. As the rules of the game clearly state. It's judged by its direction of travel relative to the passing player (and it's a basic fact of the 'real world' that all direction is relative to something).

The only true way of judging the direction the ball is propelled in is the direction it was actually propelled in after the fact, not some kind of half baked counterfactual whereby we make a guess at which direction it might be going to go based on the biomechanics of the player making the pass and then say that a guess will do regardless of what actually happens. The way it looks like it might go, is not the same as where it did go.



Everything on the pitch is relative to the ground as marked out by fixed markers like lines and flags, as long as a player is on the pitch their direction can and is judged relative to fixed lines. A player could not be judged onside or offside if we were not fixing position in some way relative to the ground, if it was simply a matter of position relative to another player then direction would be entirely meaningless within the operation of the game.

Indeed.





So why do you want the RFL to change the rules and judge it against something else then?

Well done for spotting that we don't move the pitch underneath the players, but the players move on the pitch.







but



















wtf has that got to do with anything under discussion on this thread?

I'm gonna regret this and try and make as realistic to speeds of player and ball.



Man running at 11m/s towards opponents line. Passes ball as he crosses half way line at 30m/s laterally and 0.5m/s behind him. In 1 second, ball has travelled 30m laterally and 10.5m forward(11m/s forward and .5m backward). Receiver started on the 51m line catches the ball near opponents 40m line.



Is this a forward pass-

receiver started behind the thrower.

Ball is thrown back at 0.5m/s

Ball is caught 10.5m ahead of start location.



Using simple physics the answer is no, ref doesnt have time to do calculation so guesses the direction of players hands by using the marker lines as a reference , player scores out wide, everyone shouts forward pass, Stevo claims momentum rule.

I have used an extreme case which I have no doubt would result in the ref feeling obliged to call forward.